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Episode Overview

Our guest this week has been walking the walk for the past 20 years in Technology and he has seen his fair share of successes and challenges. Over time, Tim and his wife Jaime have helped teams to adopt modern practices like Agile, Lean, Scrum, and DevOps. Today we speak with Tim to discuss Agile coaching, consulting, experimentation at Pixar, working in India…. and a crazy weekend 20 years ago involving dial up internet and lots of Red Bull.

Transcript

Christian Espinoza:

"Individuals and interactions over processes and tools, working software over comprehensive documentation, customer collaboration over contract negotiation, responding to change over following a plan". These 17 guys who met up for some pizza 20 years ago were teaching us something when they wrote this into the agile manifesto, but even they would have never imagined the enormous impact Agile would have. All over the world from private firms to schools, to governments, Agile, has been adopted, co-opted, re-imagined in dozens of different ways, but at the heart of it all in its most purest form, it really comes down to these basic elements.

Christian Espinoza:

We're continuing our special series of interviews, exploring Agile and the effect it has had in the technology industry as well as right here at Voyager today, my guest is Tim Phillips. He is an independent Agile coach and a Software Practice Lead at Voyager. In the last 20 years, Tim has seen it all. We discuss Agile coaching, consulting, experimentation at Pixar, working in India, and a pretty crazy Red Bull Weekend.

Christian Espinoza:

Agile has been since the manifesto was written 20 years ago you know, a lot's changed things have evolved, but you've been in this industry for 20 years yourself, if not a little bit more, I'd like to just ask you know, how did you start in technology and can you walk me through a little bit about that story.

Tim Philips:

Yeah, sure. So I guess for me, I've been using agile ways of working and just agile ways of thinking for probably the better part of 20 years and it's not something that I consciously did, it's not, you know, a blog post that I read - it's just having worked for small, medium, large startups and stuff, you've got to be quite resourceful and quite often what I find in the contracting space is quite often there's things that pop up to block you so you know, just being somewhat more agile and the ability to be open to change and responding to changes within that has taught me to, I guess, think in and be in and act differently but what I'm finding now is that there is a lot more... I'm seeing a lot more people doing those same things you know, versus five, 10,15 years ago.

Christian Espinoza:

I guess five, 10 or even 15 years ago - where did you find yourself? What were you doing then?

Tim Philips:

15 years ago? Yeah, so I think I'd probably just cashed out of a startup that I started with some friends that we started in early 2000 and just setting up my own consulting business which as you know, has kind of a funny name. And...

Christian Espinoza:

Why don't you tell us about that a little as well? It's Unfuddle right? I actually saw it and I thought Unfuddle... That means you're trying to get out of a fuddle. What's a fuddle, maybe talk to that a little bit.

Tim Philips:

So I've been involved in technology for the better part of 20 years worked for a number of service providers, as I mentioned, you know, startups and a lot of what I've done in the last 15 years has heavily been in the hosting space but what I've found is that quite often engineering teams or groups of people aren't necessarily operating at the level that they could be and what my consulting business is around is about reorganizing people and teams, and equipping them with tools and processes around agile and scrum, lean methodologies and more in the last five to 10 years is that DevOps, so trying to break down silos within teams and getting a better cross-pollination with people and what they can do to contribute towards a product or a vision within a team.

Christian Espinoza:

Yeah, hard when you're going into organizations as an outsider, or close contractor, going into these organizations to see who's actually on board and who's not

Tim Philips:

It definitely can be and one of the things that I think can either strengthen or break the agile transformation within companies is that buy-in, and particularly the buy-in with the people and the buy-in all through the organization, especially from the executives and leadership within the businesses. So some of the more forward-looking businesses that I see that's where they really care about thinking and operating differently. And they can actually see that maybe they're not accelerated to the level they could be. You know, a lot of these companies have incredibly talented people, but they've just been doing things the way that they've always done them. And, you know, as a result now expecting some sort of a different outcome.

Tim Philips:

..But You know I do find that it can vary and there can be some sort of change resistance, but I think you almost get that anywhere. But you know, particularly when you're, when you're setting out to specifically transform the way that people work sometimes you do get that resistance, but them being able to see what they're doing and what the value is that they're going to derive at the end - I think that can be quite empowering for people that do think differently.

Christian Espinoza:

Absolutely. You mentioned a quote when we talked earlier, you said, "what got us here, won't get us there" and it's just stuck with me and I absolutely love it. Can you talk a little bit on where that came from and how you've incorporated that in your own practice?

Tim Philips:

Yeah, sure. So in 2016/2017 I was doing quite a lot of work for a company called Namecheap.com they're one of the largest ICANN accredited domain registrars and I was incredibly fortunate to work directly with the COO, a guy called Hillan Klein. And Namecheap at the time was around four or five hundred people all geographically distributed so we did something... I think it was every three or four weeks called a virtual town hall where I'd get everyone together and we'd run through this thing called a balanced scorecard and see where we were versus where we think we were supposed to get to. And one of the things that he positioned and pushed was "what got us here, won't get us there" and like you, that really stuck for me as well.

Tim Philips:

It really resonated that sometimes we try and use the same processes, the same approaches to try and just continually change, but they don't yield that change that we need. And sometimes I find particularly because I'm incredibly passionate around process optimization is the fact that if it's not working, you need to down tools, figure out what is working, what isn't working and what we can do moving forward. So I think, you know, what got us here won't necessarily get us there really encapsulates that sort of mindset and that thinking. And I've tried to share that with you know, the team at Voyager particularly around the sort of the agile transformation that we've been doing, that there's going to be some things that, that yes, they will continue to work, but there's going to be some things that we'll need to challenge and, and figure out whether this still relevant in 2020, 20, 21.

Christian Espinoza:

Yeah. Well, a lot's changed. I mean, even in the last few months do you find that there with Voyager's own journey, have you had a, you've had the advantage of being able to plan what the future could look like and then work towards it? Have you had that kind of ability to do that here?

Tim Philips:

So yeah, I guess going back to where I started in 2019 we knew that we had a group of people in technology that were very silo based. We had people around Networks and Systems and Development and Voice and they operated in very much of a vertical silo. And as a result of that we wanted to group them into these product teams. So the initial vision for that was to be able to group these people around the product was to use scrum as a framework to provide them a facility to do their work, it gave them a cadence for their work, it gave them mechanisms to look back on things that are working and aren't working, and plan and gave us a way to forecast the amount of work that these teams might be able to do on a two weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly basis.

Tim Philips:

And I think you know, what we were looking at the, as we were just literally looking at what can we do to transform these, the operating mode of these teams initially, and then the next evolution which, which we hadn't necessarily discussed at that starting point was the evolution of, of tribes at Voyager. So I think you know, if, if I was to look back I think if I was to outlay a very specific path I think that might've, you know, forced us to do things differently. We took more of an organic approach and, you know, as the, as the business requirements were emerging you know, the dynamics within the team, we were looking at how do we, how do we get them to the next level? How do we, you know, take the teams forward?

Tim Philips:

So, yeah. I think the, the coaching and specifically in the agile coaching space each, each instance that I've had where I've come into an organization they've been at different maturities, they've been at, you know, different, different paths, different requirements you know, some, even in different industries. So therefore, you know, what I could use and one might not directly, you know, transpose one for one to the likes of voyages. So it's, it's very much been around the people the process and, and the, the product

Christian Espinoza:

That's that reminds me, there was a, a book in the, in the library the agile library, Creativity, Inc. And I really liked how, you know, it really, it really centered around the people and their passion. Can you talk a little bit about what you took from that maybe in terms of what is practical and, and, and could be applied really organizations-wide you know, given that they, they are Pixar. So there are very creative animations based just magical kind of, you know, bringing that magic. But how did they use, you know, these methods?

Tim Philips:

So I think they've been very much like us that they've, they've started from a specific point and they just keep iterating, but I think the thing that is so, so incredible about Pixar's that they, they look to be using agile ways of working you know, all the way back then, you know, when they first started. And I think one of the key things that keeps them open as is building a really supportive culture around communication. You know, the, I don't know if you remember back to the book, but, you know, there's talking about the brain trust when they bring people together and there, you know,

Christian Espinoza:

I thought that was great. The brain trust the idea of bringing the people in.

Tim Philips:

And, and you know, Steve jobs bought them that table. It wasn't a round table. So, you know, there was some people that were dominated on one side and it is this, all these things that might be metaphors, but you know, the, they have a massive culture around experimentation. And one of the things that my son, as he was growing up, he really loved those Pixar short movies. And as, as I was reading through the book, it dawned on me that they were using those as experiments because they were very, very cheap to get started. And if it didn't pan out, then they didn't really lose a lot of money versus a feature films. So, you know, there's a lot of stuff that we can take from that, and we can use those, those approaches, and those mindsets and what we do day-to-day but we, we have a book club that was started by Daniel Stastny who, who, I think you've already interviewed, we had him on the podcast.

Tim Philips:

Yeah. Yeah. So he started this book club. So I think we have one or two books that we read per quarter as a team, and then we come together and we talk about those and, and this was one of those books that really captivated each of us and you know, the, the amount of points that we had talking about that and drawing parallels to, you know, to, to where a Voyager is and agile and, and the ways, the challenges that we have with the teams and, you know, the potential opportunities that we have with the teams and, and yeah, it's, it's incredibly fascinating, but I, the thing that I like the most about it is that they're so far removed from a technology company as, as the heart. Yeah, sure. All of their stuff is, you know, 3d animation, it's all done on computers, but you don't necessarily think of them as a technology company. They're, they're a movie entertainment. Vehicle

Christian Espinoza:

Exactly. And because, I mean, the idea of abstraction from the technology to really deliver on something that is of absolute value to the end consumer, that the people actually taking it in, you know, whether it's a movie or not, how have you taken that approach or those kinds of ideas with your own coaching and developing teams.

Tim Philips:

Hmm. That's a good point. So one of the things today is we've got an initiative and first domain, so we're trying to increase the experience, increase the revenue. And so as part of the scrum framework, when, whenever we break our work down for a two week period, we, we try and assign goals around those works. So it's like the North star of what we want to complete as a team. And we articulate the value that we'll be delivering as part of delivering on that. And one of them was, and they might seem, you know, incredibly small, but there's some, some experiments that we're starting to run. And, and I think it's the first time that we've really started to use that experimental mindset and as part of the sprint goals you know, we, we, we prefix them with growth experiment.

Tim Philips:

So, you know, thinking back to Pixar and those short movies, those little experiments you know, there, there was absolutely no certainty that would deliver on, but and some of them, you know, that you saw through the brain trust as far as Creativity Inc goes and picks some of those movies that started out far different from, you know, what we actually watch when we go to the movie theater. So it was a really good example. And I think the, the other one I forget what it was in your mind with the different feelings.

Christian Espinoza:

Yes. I know the one, it'll come to me.

Christian Espinoza:

And while we struggle to remember the film "Inside Out", you can catch us in a minute. Growth is a podcast about people, their stories, their challenges, and how they help to shape technology for all of us. We're producing a special series of episodes to kick off our podcast, dedicated to Voyager's journey into becoming an agile company. We interview guests who were integral in shaping that journey, and we delve into what it means to be Agile. More with Tim after the break.

Christian Espinoza:

I think it helps to foster a creative imagination and just an open mind. There's a lot of that that I've noticed then just in the original agile manifesto and putting people over processes, collaboration, I think all of that, obviously nurtures trust and I'm in a safe environment between the teams, but maybe let's go back to, you know, 20 years ago when things weren't as they weren't as adopted in, in the conversation as they are today with agile. I mean, it seems to be a buzz word a lot, but I recall that you, you told me earlier before the tape you were there was mention of a red bull weekend now, perhaps if you could just enlighten us with that story, because I really, I think there was something more to that.

Tim Philips:

Yeah. So I guess if we draw a parallel to The Agile Manifesto responding to change so it was, I think it was 2020 sorry. 2001, sorry. And I was working at 'i4free' which has part of which was part of Callplus owned by Malcolm Dick. And so I think it was like a Friday night or something like that, and we get called into his office and it turns out that Clear Communications, the partner that they'd been using for terminating calls that would allow customers on the site free service to basically have free internet. Clear and Telecom had come to an agreement that they, it was no longer financially viable and, and yada yada, so long story short you know, i4free was basically at a point where it was non-viable as a service, so

Christian Espinoza:

Offering dial-up right. Free dial-up?

Tim Philips:

That's right, I think DSL broadband was like the new kid on the block, but it was just, you know, I think it was called JetStream back then. It wasn't even a thing that most people had access to, but we were sort of propositioned that i4free is dead in the water we've got a limited time, we need to create an offering, we've got a hundred and something thousand customers on this, and we want to turn this into this thing called Slingshot. So my boss at the time Wayne Todd and he came in with this tray of Red Bull and said, you guys, you know, we've got this weekend to turn this around. And, and you know, we did it, I think there was like a handful of us, some of them even still work at Callplus who basically, helped build Slingshot in a weekend which is crazy that to go to go from nothing to something and, and, you know, brand new website you know, transitional pages to take customers from, from free to paid and so forth. It was yeah.

Christian Espinoza:

but you managed to get it done, right?

Tim Philips:

We, we did, yeah, it was probably a bit rougher on the edges, but yet it was done.

Christian Espinoza:

The idea of working so hard you know, like put together a squad work really, really hard and just like slug it out for 24-48 hours straight with Red Bull. That seems well, it's definitely not, not sustainable, but we're, we're where do you sit with that and having teams really just like work crazy hours. Like, I think there was mention of that in Creativity Inc. And in the book when they were working just round the clock, this was toy story, or I think maybe even Toy Story 2. And yeah, it was quite a horrific circumstance where one of the staff members, I think he drove into work forgot to drop his kid off to school on the way, and it left him in the car. And luckily I think everything was fine, but something like that when you're overtired stressed how would you coach people to overcome that or even avoid that altogether? What's your takeaway?

Tim Philips:

Yeah, so it's definitely something that we try and promote within the teams is we need to get to a sustainable pace, sustainable rhythm. You know, we, we call them sprints, but you know, in essence, they're, they're essentially marathons, right. You know, we're, we're playing the long game, so we've got to figure out, you know, how much is too much work and how much is not enough. So, so one of the things that we do is we, we try and make the, the work that the teams have to do or, or committing to do is, is fully transparent. You know, the, we can see it, we understand as much as we possibly can about the work. Any one's unknown's anything that's likely to catch us out based on what we've done previously. But I think it's, it's of that sort of norming, forming situation with the team that they figure out in the, in the initial instances that some teams, they just take on way too much work, but over time using those retrospectives and looking back at what we've done before and what's working, what's not you know, it sets us up with a more realistic expectation of what we can do as a team.

Tim Philips:

And one of the things that we tried to do you know, to, to keep that to keep that velocity within the teams, as we try and not split the teams up and move people around too often, because you, you become aware of what your team members can do, the limits and limitations that you have within the teams. So keeping them relatively static gives us a little bit more certainty. But, but yeah, it's, it's definitely something that I'm massively passionate about is making sure that we get the teams to a sustainable pace because we don't really end up getting that, that level of creativity out of the teams and, and you know, quite often people can lead to burnout and, and so forth. So yeah, just, just aiming for that sustainable pace, but being, being able to make it visible, what that is. And sometimes it's a number or sometimes it's, you know, it's whatever the team can do to articulate, you know, when, when they're at their at right point.

Christian Espinoza:

Exactly. And I, and I guess over time they get to know each other and themselves I think psychological wellbeing is, is really important as you say, plus people have families. I mean, exactly. You mentioned your son, and I know that through your website, Unfuddle, I believe your partner, your wife, she's obviously involved too. Tell us about her involvement and maybe how did you first meet I'd love to know?

Tim Philips:

Yeah. So we actually met just before the red bull weekend, we both worked together at Callplus she was the receptionist back then. We just hit it off. So, so yeah, we've been together for 21 years or something like that. Yeah. So what she brings to the businesses you know, she she's really good in the comms space. So she, she does a lot of proofing. She can generate a lot of content. She handles all of the, the e-commerce side of you know, making sure that all the articles that we post on LinkedIn you know, across posted on various platforms and so forth. But I guess one of the key strengths that she does have as she was one of the early members of Trade Me, so she started on the front line and customer service and then, and then worked on their phone support.

Tim Philips:

And then at one point she was actually shoulder tapped to take up an opportunity within their software testing team, which was all manual testing at the time. But the, the, the real strength that she brought to that was, she had a very deep understanding of the, the business roles around trade me and its various systems. So what that meant was that you know, as she's going about our, day-to-day thinking about software testing as she had such a deep understanding of the product and what was supposed to happen which I think you know, is something that quite often isn't really apparent these days. And, and I'm a massive supporter of you know, promoting internally for these sorts of things. But what she does bring is you know, as I said, she brings that, that software testing and, and one of the parts where she really supported me, particularly at Namecheap when I was trying to work with their QA engineering team in India was within the space of a couple of days, she, she built out like a whole, several hundred automated tests for them to demonstrate how automated testing could really improve their workflow and time to market.

Tim Philips:

So that DevOps thinking you know, what can we do to you know, deliver as much value as quickly as possible?

Christian Espinoza:

Tell me about your time in India, then you mentioned with Namecheap, what was, what was that like?

Tim Philips:

So it was a really good opportunity. I think it was 2016, 2017. I did several trips out to Southern India and they had quite a large team there. And most of it was focused around software engineering. There was a few people from Product we'd headed an emerging customer service into there. But because of my previous history and the hosting space I was asked to go out there and just do a bit of an assessment on the team and, you know, any gaps and, and any training opportunities we have for the team and any ways that we could optimize what we have which was really you know, building on the strengths that I have you know, that are bring through from Unfuddle and, and helping you know, support at Voyager.

Tim Philips:

But I identified one team that we had there and this was for dating product focused teams. They, you know, they were traditionally running product projects per se, and quite often the projects would be delayed. So with the help of a lady who had actually just been promoted to a product owner we, we assembled a group. I think it was about eight people. There was a scrum master, some software developers, it was QA engineers. Who did we have? It was somebody from a product ownership perspective and, and very quickly we, we scaffolded the first iteration of a product focus team. And at that point that the company was probably about 500 people. So, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing how far companies can go.

Tim Philips:

You know, and then still need reorganization at a certain point. But the feedback that I got was working very closely in a hands-on capacity with these teams was that you know, we, we took one of the slower performing teams. And then we reassembled them. You know, we, all the capabilities in there, all that sort of cross functionality within the team we gave them a very specific focus. It was around their, their hosting portfolio. And you know, the feedback that I was getting within months was that this was immediately one of the higher performing teams. So you know, coming back to sort of thinking differently, it was just about reorganizing people. These, we had the capabilities that we needed. They just weren't grouped effectively and, and sort of weren't really executing. So, so that was the sort of forte into Namecheap sort of moving into more product focus. They adopted the a framework called SAFe, which is scaled agile framework. It's really for sort of more of the enterprise space. But yeah, they're absolutely kicking it. I think 2016, there were like a hundred billion dollars revenue. And I think 2020 there are over 200. So, so, you know, just that, that foundation, those dominoes you know, sort of just moving forwards, slow iterations you know, looking back and reflecting and moving forward. It was yeah, it was a really exciting time for me.

Christian Espinoza:

I wonder how do you, as a, as a coach or a contractor looking from the outside in, how do you see whether, how do you, how do you know whether or not a different framework, like, like scaled agile or DevOps or scrum will, will work within the dynamics of the organization?

Tim Philips:

Yeah, so that's a really interesting question. I think I I've, I've never really walked into any one organization and sort of just prescribed stuff over the counter, so to speak. You know, when I came to Voyager, it was different. That obviously decided that agile was the way that they wanted to go. They wanted to use the scrum framework and they wanted product focused teams. So for me that was more execution mode. It was you know, what can I do to help sort of you know, group and, and coach the scrum masters and product ownership and so forth. But yeah, it's, it's been really going in, in an observation mode into these organizations, figuring out where they are from a maturity point of view maybe doing a bit of a SWOT assessment to figure out what gaps they have within and you know, sort of formulating a plan from there.

Christian Espinoza:

Right. I wonder just before we wrap, I'd like to know, you know, 20 years now we've been more or less trying to fumble our way through agile and finally where we're at this point, but what is in store, do you think for the next 20 years or even 10, five, I mean, things are changing so quick. Right. But what do you think we have to look ahead to?

Tim Philips:

Yeah, I, I think you know, and, and maybe some of these things are more sort of on the technology side, but I think there's, there's a lot of emergence in the sort of low code, no code space. So these people are looking at sort of Zapier and integrations and, and you don't necessarily need to be a technical person to be able to connect system a, to system B and to be able to improve your work workflow. I've seen some very large businesses now that are, that are sort of supported by very few people. I mean, if we look back at Instagram, they were a $1 billion company when they sold, there was 13 people you know, how is that possible? So, you know, it's, it's through thinking differently. And, you know, I think there's going to be a heavy move into sort of more clouds services.

Tim Philips:

And, and particularly in that DevOps space I think, you know, the, the sort of the lines between sort of system engineering and sort of development is going to be sort of merging a bit closer because you know, they, they're going to find that they're able to stroke cross pollinate within that, and there's sort of a better, a better use of services. I think there's, there's going to be a bit sort of the sort of 'Wizard of Oz' thing. People don't really care what's behind the curtain. You know, they're, they're sort of prescribing platform, they sort of push their workloads. They, they sort of use that, and we're, we're seeing a lot of that you know, with zero hardware and stuff like that, you know, people just prescribed to cloud services as a utility model. You know, some of them used to be sort of, you know, you'd pay daily and then it went to hourly and, you know, some is minutely and some, some is even built by the second.

Tim Philips:

So, you know, that sort of serverless architecture, but there's a company called fathom analytics. They pride themselves on being a very tight team. I think there's only sort of two or three, but that's sort of like you know, privacy focused, Google analytics, but you know, the guy has done a whole write-up of, of their business and how they leverage sort of the cloud platform. And they've been able to sort of leverage DevOps and as a result of that, they don't need a whole lot of people to you know, to sort of run their business. And last week Rackspace said that they're moving into this thing called elastic engineering. So you know, previously, you, you just think about being able to prescribe to cloud infrastructure, but they're doing that with people now. So if you want to architect for, you know, for a day and hour, that you can prescribe to that.

Tim Philips:

And so I think that's, that's thinking differently. That's sort of moving into the future, seeing that people may not want we'll see the value in having, you know, permanent architecture teams established. They may need to do them on a prescription model. I think there's, there's definitely, there's still going to be a lot around machine learning and AI you know, this, there's this platform called kite.com. It's an editor that can almost predict what sort of code you're going to fill in as you sort of use the editor. It's, it's amazing how that stuff works. And there's deep code that uses AI to perform code you know, analytics over years sort of merge requests and things like that. So I think they're looking very much from a security focus, but you know, having, having things systems behind the scenes doing that rather than people that may not add specific value to that space.

Tim Philips:

So I think, and we use a tool called New Relic, which has embedded sort of AI in the application alerting. So it's sort of looking at you know, the alarms that your systems generate and figure out what that that's an anomaly or an outlier and things like that. So sort of heavily, you know, sort of machine learning and AI focused. And, and I think for me, the last part that I see as, as is around this sort of CX and DX space, so this, this customer experience and, and something that I've been sort of pushing for years is sort of developer experience as well as making sure that we, that we're getting the right experiences for everyone that's using and building the platforms and services that we have. I know that, you know, voyage has kicked off a big customer experience review you know, based on feedback and we're heavily invested in just improving the, that experience and whether that sort of an individual interaction, or whether that's, you know, purchasing services or logging faults or, you know, however it is it's, it's really important. And I think that's, what's going to set, you know, the likes of you know, Voyager ahead of some of our competitors,

Christian Espinoza:

Absolutely. Out of interest in what we're talking about the future. And you mentioned your son, what do you think is in his future in terms of that technology and does he have an interest in, and even what you do or, or that sort of thing?

Tim Philips:

He wants to be an influencer on YouTube and I'm on the fence on that one

Christian Espinoza:

Of course, Better money!

Tim Philips:

Yeah, yeah, no, he's I mean, the thing is you know, he's, he's 12 you know, unreal engine is available that they use to build games. It's, it, they've made it incredibly easy to actually build stuff and across compiles to different platforms, to different consoles. So he's in a different world than I was you know, when I was growing up and as a result of that, he could literally you know, not, not sort of promoting this, but I mean, he could literally skip school. You know, he's good at graphics, he's good at audio. He could probably build a game and sell it on an app platform, like the app store, Apple app store, or Android store. These things were not available to us before. So there's, there's a, there's a lot of opportunity if you see opportunity. And again, it's just about thinking differently, you know, who would have thought that you could be building your own games at home on a, on a modern computer and publishing it around the world and, you know, overnight have hundreds of thousands of people purchasing it or using it.

Christian Espinoza:

I know, Hey, you know what, maybe there's a red bull weekend in his future. You never know Tim. I want to thank you so much for being on growth podcast. And it's just been a pleasure speaking with you.

Tim Philips:

Thank you. And you too,

Christian Espinoza:

You've been listening to the Growth podcast, a production from Voyager internet. My name is Christian Espinoza. The show was produced, edited and mixed by me, special, thanks to my guest, Tim Phillips. Stay tuned for our next episode in our agile series. If you liked this episode and would like to hear more, just subscribed to us from your podcast app, we feature interviews with the people behind the computer screens, and we learn a bit about them, their background, and even their love for energy drinks, especially on long weekends. So until, until next time, peace.